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posted by [personal profile] orichalcum at 09:16am on 30/10/2005
This is not, in fact, a post about same-sex marriage. However, the train of thought was sparked in my mind by this hypothetical argument by Belle Waring, which basically suggests that SSM might be bad because it's a major social change of a fundamental institution in the same way that no-fault divorce was. She argues that while no-fault divorce seemed like a good idea at the time (getting couples out of miserable, abusive situations), it's ruined the lives of millions of kids, and that society shouldn't be focusing on the emotional well-being of the parents, who got themselves into the mess in the first place, but rather on the welfare of the kids, who are better off in a two-parent household in nearly all circumstances where their parents are gritting their teeth and dealing. N.B. - I am not trying to criticize or insult anyone's particular family choices or beliefs here; this is a huge complex social issue which I'm trying to think about and wrap my head around, and where I'd appreciate a variety of different perspectives.


So I find this a provocative argument. I don't know any child of divorced parents where that didn't have a profound, and generally mildly traumatic effect on their upbringing and childhood. I'm less familiar, admittedly, with kids from families who stayed together unhappily out of prejudice against divorce, although there's a compelling argument that my own parents stayed together during certain rough times mostly because of me, my brother, and a committment to taking the "in sickness and in health" part of the vows seriously.

But to me the interesting question that this argument raises is whether the societal problem in America is with divorce - or with marriage? Since we know that certain types of marriages have a quite high lifetime success rate (both partners being well-educated, older age at first marriage, etc...), should we really be saying that it's awful that people are getting divorced so casually, or that they're getting married without due forethought? My mom, for instance, got married her junior year of college partially because she wanted to live off-campus with her boyfriend; my dad (in a different first marriage) got married at 21 because he didn't want to lose touch with his college friends and thought that marrying one of them was a surefire way to keep her around. (Me, I prefer LJ and email...) These were both pretty ridiculous reasons and, as it turns out, very poor foundations for successful marriages. (N.B. Obviously, lots of people can get married very young and live happily ever after!)

When my parents got married again [to each other] at 32, it was after not only love but a careful process in which they committed to making their relationship and family take precedence over their individual career goals and established grounds for compromise, as well as living together for several years and ironing out some of the rough edges. Yes, there were problems in the long run, but also a lot of happiness in the 26 years they were given together.

In general, I'm pretty opposed to things that we know have serious negative impacts on kids. Would our generation, roughly speaking, be much more well adjusted if fewer of us had grown up in split homes? Maybe. But maybe what we should be doing for the future is placing a high value and respect on the institution of marriage [in my mind, irrespective of gender], and discouraging people from entering that institution casually. The corollary, of course, would be discouraging children outside of marriage or at least in unstable relationships, since that seems to create its own set of problems, but I'm less certain of how to do that without reinforcing a social stigma which primarily effects young women.

OTOH, the problem with the above approach seems to be what many friends in their late 30s are currently experiencing, which is that, having carefully waited and married for the right reasons, and then taken the time to make sure the marriage is stable before having kids, they're now having serious fertility issues. That one, I don't have a solution for.

Feel free to disagree, as always.
Mood:: 'thoughtful' thoughtful
There are 23 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] digitalemur.livejournal.com at 07:34pm on 30/10/2005
Reading your preamble, I was wondering why she thinks SSM will necessarily ultimately have negative effects on children that are comparable to no-fault divorce, but I realize I should probably just go read it if I actually want the answer, and I don't want the answer badly enough at the moment.

Re not divorcing for the sake of children, I'm not sure what to think either, because while I can tell you that the children in my family who were older when our parents split have fared better on some measures than those who were younger, I'm not sure how to meaningfully assay the outcomes. Somebody has to have studied this, and if I ever get a free moment, I'll go poke at PsychInfo and see what I get. As it is I've got a stack of articles about marital outlook for people whose parents are divorced, but no time to read them. (And a firm belief that I'm wiser than my parents, to be honest, but is that hubris?) Oh, for a time when I'll have my feet under me again at work and at home and have more time on reading.....
 
posted by [identity profile] outlawradio.livejournal.com at 07:53pm on 30/10/2005
All I can say is I don't see how stable SSM can be worse than broken heterosexual marriage. Re. [livejournal.com profile] digitalemur's comment, we too experienced badness inversely proportional to our ages at the time the divorce began: I was 15, and my brothers were 8 and 4 (the youngest clearly getting -- *still* -- the worst of it, IMO). That said, we all got something bad. And we had all the support kids could possibly have. I hate to think what it would have been like in a situation with fewer resources to draw on.

Of course people should get married after some forethought. That should certainly be the goal. I'm at a loss as to how to encourage this to happen -- especially in a world of pro-abstinence, anti-birth-control sex education which as a result seems to encourage rushing into things for nookie.

Wow, I guess I had a rant brewing.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 09:40pm on 30/10/2005

I definitely agree with the stable SSM vs broken het marriage point. But yeah - even in the best of situations, divorce isn't good for kids, and I feel like your and lemur's patterns are not uncommon.

Somehow I'm reminded of the current contrast with the hoops and hurdles that Americans have to go through these days when they want to marry a non-U.S. citizen and bring them into this country, where you really do basically have to prove how deep and stable your commitment is. And I think that goes much too far in the other direction (poor retsuko!), but it does seem that the concept of marriage means a lot of different things to different people. And yes - when marriage is seen as a way to get nookie, bad consequences are almost inevitable.

So, um, yay for forethought?
 
posted by [identity profile] contrariety.livejournal.com at 03:50am on 31/10/2005
Following on my own quick comment below, while I don't think divorce is per se a good thing, I can point to a situation where it *was* good for the kids--my own. It was a profound relief to me, even at 8, when my parents divorced.
 
posted by [identity profile] karakara98.livejournal.com at 08:24pm on 30/10/2005
Specific to the first part of your comment, my take on Ori's preamble is that Waring is saying that SSM is a huge change to society, that there's no way to predict what the outcome of that change will be, so maybe we shouldn't make it because it might be bad. Frankly, being risk averse, that argument has some ring of truth for me. :) But I'll agree with Outlawradio and say that stable SSM probably can't be worse that broken heterosexual marriage. Civil unions though scare me.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 09:48pm on 30/10/2005
The other big argument that she's making (as devil's advocate, actually being in favor of SSM) is that if marriage is really about providing a good environment for kids and family, then SSM makes less sense because less likely to be about kids, and uncharted waters. That bit I can attack - but didn't want to here and today.

 
posted by [identity profile] karakara98.livejournal.com at 03:01am on 31/10/2005
While I certainly think that marriage is about things other than having children to many people, I don't think as a social or legal concept we can remove the assumption that a child will enter the picture from marriage. Mostly I think that the most socially stable position is to have only one type of legally recognized relationship. If we start having legally recognized sub-marriages I think that it will make people take marriage itself less seriously. If we're only going to have one type of legally recognized relationship, you have to assume that children will enter the picture, even if that means you give the tax and legal benefits you reserve for families with children to couples without.

Even assuming that children won't be present with SSM (which I agree, can be attacked) if we start recognizing relationships that aren't marriage between same sex partners, we will start seeing unmarried het couples clamoring for the same recognition. I saw this happen at Yale while a grad student. I think it's a matter of time until we see het couples registering for Civil unions in states with civil unions but no SSM. I think this would be bad for kids, hence my all or nothing position.
 
posted by [identity profile] julianyap.livejournal.com at 03:24am on 31/10/2005
Out of curiosity, why do civil unions scare you?
 
posted by [identity profile] karakara98.livejournal.com at 08:41pm on 30/10/2005
Ori, you've hit on the huge social question of our time. I agree that people do need to look before they leap into marriage (my own parents' poor marriage was probably a result of getting married for the wrong reasons and too soon), but there are also problems with delaing marriage too long. I base this statement having been in a many year committed relationship through college and beyond and enduring the break up of that relationship. The break up I went through was better than a divorce for many reasons (no kids, no legal issues to deal with, and no shared household to break up), but it was still a wrench, and I'm left with the feeling that I wasted several years of my life and that now I need to rush into a marriage to have kids sooner rather than later to avoid future fertility problems. I guess the advantage I have though over a 21 year old is that I do know myself better and have had experience relating to another person.

The only solution that I can think of is requiring pre-marital counseling a la the Roman Catholic Church's Pre-Cana program, but how, when, and by whom is clearly a thorny issue.

The other dimension of this problem is the focus on Weddings. So many people focus on preparing for the Wedding and not the marriage, it's not surprising that people have problems after the fact.

Finally, last week I read a review of "Between Two Worlds: The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce" by Elizabeth Marquardt (Crown). It claims that even amicable divorces a negative emotional impact on children and that unhappy marriages have less of one. I haven't yet read the book, so I don't know how much credit to give it. Information was apparently collected via interview and telephone survey of "young adults" both from divorced and in tact families. I'm curious to read it though.
 
posted by [identity profile] outlawradio.livejournal.com at 09:38pm on 30/10/2005
Similar points to Marquardt's are made by Judith Wallerstein in her book, The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce. [livejournal.com profile] karakara98, I feel like I've mentioned this book to you before. It's not a wide-ranging study, but a longitudinal one: the negative impact of divorce was present in virtually all cases, and in cases where the marriages stayed intact -- it seemed like for those kids, there was a model of what to do and what not to do, and they were better off. Much of the point of the book is that the effects are there and that they last a long time -- into adulthood -- and I can testify to that personally. (Though I want to take issue with her assertion that two children of divorce categorically shouldn't marry, and I hope to prove her wrong. :)

I am 100% with you on counseling, I think it should be encouraged, but even if it is, not everyone will do it.

What I hear from our generation is that enough of us grew up in a divorced household to understand how much it damages kids that we are willing to extend ourselves not to let it happen again. I sincerely hope this will be the case.
 
posted by [identity profile] r-ness.livejournal.com at 05:21am on 31/10/2005
I'm left with the feeling that I wasted several years of my life and that now I need to rush into a marriage to have kids sooner rather than later to avoid future fertility problems.

True enough, but--thinking about that situation--I do wonder what would have happened if you had married him and had children, and whether that would have been a better outcome.

Delaying marriage may well have helped you dodge a bullet.

(But, well, I've been in a long term relationship for quite a while, so you know what my biases are. :) )
 
posted by [identity profile] karakara98.livejournal.com at 02:40pm on 31/10/2005
True, that's not really a logical argument against delaying marriage. And I am glad we didn't.
 
posted by [identity profile] pseudosilence.livejournal.com at 10:17pm on 30/10/2005
Hmm. I have to say that I'm not entirely convinced of the blanket negative effects of divorce. My own parents divorced when I was three, and I think I may well be better off for it. I honestly can't imagine my parents living together happily, or the bizarre life that might have resulted from the attempt.

Don't get me wrong, my childhood wasn't particularly happy, but I think that mostly came from who I was, and I'm not sure how much it could have been improved. The lack of money that comes from living with a single mother was probably the biggest negative effect of the divorce. But, given my father, I think my childhood was *more* stable because of the divorce, not less. So yeah, I think I'm happy that my parents had the option of a relatively easy divorce that let them fashion such radically different lives.

Supporting the idea of no fault divorce doesn't mean that you can't also support taking marriage seriously, though. It's sort of like abortion -- I believe it should be safe, legal and rare.

Not to stray too far into another area of controversy, but I do find a common framework in the way I think about both get into any abortion rants) The clearly best solution is to be responsible from the get go, think about what you're doing, and not take any life-changing steps until you're ready for them. But that's not the way the real world works, and it's important to have a way for people to adjust for changing circumstances, poor decisions, and flat out bad luck. And I've seen enough people turn sour and spread misery because they felt trapped or were unpreparred for either marriage or parenthood to underestimate the negative repercussions of both.

As to how to get people to take marriage more seriously, I'm not sure. But I take the institution more seriously knowing that it's something I've deliberately choosen to enter into, not because it was expected, but because I think the reward will be worth the work. In this respect, I think changing attitudes about the necessity and nature of marriage may well stregthen it in the long run.

Overall, though, it boils down to people need to be much more responsible about both their marriages and their children. And how on earth do we accomplish that?

-PS



 
posted by [identity profile] karakara98.livejournal.com at 03:04am on 31/10/2005
Good points all.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 03:06pm on 31/10/2005
Yeah - none of us are coming up with panaceas, certainly. One possibility from the societal standpoint, given that we're already talking about potential failures in parenting, is to seriously revamp how we teach "health" class or sex ed. OTOH, I don't know if I would have been receptive as a 14-year-old to serious discussions about the importance of entering marriage for the right reasons. And it's entirely possible or likely that any such information or discussions would fly out the window on the chirpy pink wings of romance.

 
posted by [identity profile] contrariety.livejournal.com at 03:48am on 31/10/2005
"I don't know any child of divorced parents where that didn't have a profound, and generally mildly traumatic effect on their upbringing and childhood."

Yes you do. :)

*waves*
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 04:12am on 31/10/2005
Great! Congratulations! Although couldn't one argue that growing up with separated parents had a profound effect, even if it was largely positive?
 
posted by [identity profile] r-ness.livejournal.com at 05:12am on 31/10/2005
should we really be saying that it's awful that people are getting divorced so casually, or that they're getting married without due forethought?

"Marry in haste, repent at leisure."

It's as true as it's ever been.

When people wring their hands about the divorce rate, I observe that it's just too easy to get married. I do grant, however, that the reason why marriage is easy is that this society wants to discourage illegitimate births.

I think it boils down to whether one thinks divorce is worse than bastardy. Single-parent households are also problematic.

One problem is that biology makes copulation easy and quick, but parenting is difficult and takes a long time.

Another problem is that we have structured our society so that education is an advantage, but education takes a long time, which means that people wishing to improve themselves need to spend their prime childbearing years getting educated.

These are not simple problems.
 
posted by [identity profile] jila.livejournal.com at 03:13pm on 31/10/2005
As the child of Parents who only stayed together because of the child, I can say easily that I wish they had gotten the divorce. Even with all of the difficulties faced by single parent families, being raise dby parents not on speaking terms wasn't exactly healthy either. I think its a balancing act based on just how bad the situation is.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 05:05pm on 31/10/2005
Thanks for the perspective. It seems like one of the issues is whether any generalizations are possible, or whether each family really is an individual case and situation. (Which of course they are at some level, but can one extrapolate larger trends?)
 
posted by [identity profile] r-ness.livejournal.com at 09:42pm on 31/10/2005
Sure, I agree with you; there are many children who were/are better off out of a dysfunctional family. If we as a society didn't think so, Department of Children and Families wouldn't be pulling kids out of bad homes.

Mostly, I wanted to observe that it's not a cost-free decision: it really is about balancing between childlessness, out-of-wedlock children, unhappy marriages, and divorces. And none of those decisions are particularly easy.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 10:22pm on 31/10/2005
Can't we have some happy marriages with kids somewhere in there, r_ness? Your list sounds so depressing...
 
posted by [identity profile] r-ness.livejournal.com at 10:33pm on 31/10/2005
Oh, sure. But note that my list isn't a comprehensive list of outcomes; it's a list of difficult choices.

There are happy marriages with kids, and happy marriages of people who have chosen to be childfree, and happy people who have decided not to get married. None of those outcomes is particularly a problem. (There are probably plenty of other outcomes I can't think of off the top of my head; again, this is not a comprehensive list. :) )

Problem outcomes sound depressing? Sure. If they didn't, they wouldn't be such a problem.

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