posted by
orichalcum at 09:16am on 30/10/2005
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This is not, in fact, a post about same-sex marriage. However, the train of thought was sparked in my mind by this hypothetical argument by Belle Waring, which basically suggests that SSM might be bad because it's a major social change of a fundamental institution in the same way that no-fault divorce was. She argues that while no-fault divorce seemed like a good idea at the time (getting couples out of miserable, abusive situations), it's ruined the lives of millions of kids, and that society shouldn't be focusing on the emotional well-being of the parents, who got themselves into the mess in the first place, but rather on the welfare of the kids, who are better off in a two-parent household in nearly all circumstances where their parents are gritting their teeth and dealing. N.B. - I am not trying to criticize or insult anyone's particular family choices or beliefs here; this is a huge complex social issue which I'm trying to think about and wrap my head around, and where I'd appreciate a variety of different perspectives.
So I find this a provocative argument. I don't know any child of divorced parents where that didn't have a profound, and generally mildly traumatic effect on their upbringing and childhood. I'm less familiar, admittedly, with kids from families who stayed together unhappily out of prejudice against divorce, although there's a compelling argument that my own parents stayed together during certain rough times mostly because of me, my brother, and a committment to taking the "in sickness and in health" part of the vows seriously.
But to me the interesting question that this argument raises is whether the societal problem in America is with divorce - or with marriage? Since we know that certain types of marriages have a quite high lifetime success rate (both partners being well-educated, older age at first marriage, etc...), should we really be saying that it's awful that people are getting divorced so casually, or that they're getting married without due forethought? My mom, for instance, got married her junior year of college partially because she wanted to live off-campus with her boyfriend; my dad (in a different first marriage) got married at 21 because he didn't want to lose touch with his college friends and thought that marrying one of them was a surefire way to keep her around. (Me, I prefer LJ and email...) These were both pretty ridiculous reasons and, as it turns out, very poor foundations for successful marriages. (N.B. Obviously, lots of people can get married very young and live happily ever after!)
When my parents got married again [to each other] at 32, it was after not only love but a careful process in which they committed to making their relationship and family take precedence over their individual career goals and established grounds for compromise, as well as living together for several years and ironing out some of the rough edges. Yes, there were problems in the long run, but also a lot of happiness in the 26 years they were given together.
In general, I'm pretty opposed to things that we know have serious negative impacts on kids. Would our generation, roughly speaking, be much more well adjusted if fewer of us had grown up in split homes? Maybe. But maybe what we should be doing for the future is placing a high value and respect on the institution of marriage [in my mind, irrespective of gender], and discouraging people from entering that institution casually. The corollary, of course, would be discouraging children outside of marriage or at least in unstable relationships, since that seems to create its own set of problems, but I'm less certain of how to do that without reinforcing a social stigma which primarily effects young women.
OTOH, the problem with the above approach seems to be what many friends in their late 30s are currently experiencing, which is that, having carefully waited and married for the right reasons, and then taken the time to make sure the marriage is stable before having kids, they're now having serious fertility issues. That one, I don't have a solution for.
Feel free to disagree, as always.
So I find this a provocative argument. I don't know any child of divorced parents where that didn't have a profound, and generally mildly traumatic effect on their upbringing and childhood. I'm less familiar, admittedly, with kids from families who stayed together unhappily out of prejudice against divorce, although there's a compelling argument that my own parents stayed together during certain rough times mostly because of me, my brother, and a committment to taking the "in sickness and in health" part of the vows seriously.
But to me the interesting question that this argument raises is whether the societal problem in America is with divorce - or with marriage? Since we know that certain types of marriages have a quite high lifetime success rate (both partners being well-educated, older age at first marriage, etc...), should we really be saying that it's awful that people are getting divorced so casually, or that they're getting married without due forethought? My mom, for instance, got married her junior year of college partially because she wanted to live off-campus with her boyfriend; my dad (in a different first marriage) got married at 21 because he didn't want to lose touch with his college friends and thought that marrying one of them was a surefire way to keep her around. (Me, I prefer LJ and email...) These were both pretty ridiculous reasons and, as it turns out, very poor foundations for successful marriages. (N.B. Obviously, lots of people can get married very young and live happily ever after!)
When my parents got married again [to each other] at 32, it was after not only love but a careful process in which they committed to making their relationship and family take precedence over their individual career goals and established grounds for compromise, as well as living together for several years and ironing out some of the rough edges. Yes, there were problems in the long run, but also a lot of happiness in the 26 years they were given together.
In general, I'm pretty opposed to things that we know have serious negative impacts on kids. Would our generation, roughly speaking, be much more well adjusted if fewer of us had grown up in split homes? Maybe. But maybe what we should be doing for the future is placing a high value and respect on the institution of marriage [in my mind, irrespective of gender], and discouraging people from entering that institution casually. The corollary, of course, would be discouraging children outside of marriage or at least in unstable relationships, since that seems to create its own set of problems, but I'm less certain of how to do that without reinforcing a social stigma which primarily effects young women.
OTOH, the problem with the above approach seems to be what many friends in their late 30s are currently experiencing, which is that, having carefully waited and married for the right reasons, and then taken the time to make sure the marriage is stable before having kids, they're now having serious fertility issues. That one, I don't have a solution for.
Feel free to disagree, as always.
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Re not divorcing for the sake of children, I'm not sure what to think either, because while I can tell you that the children in my family who were older when our parents split have fared better on some measures than those who were younger, I'm not sure how to meaningfully assay the outcomes. Somebody has to have studied this, and if I ever get a free moment, I'll go poke at PsychInfo and see what I get. As it is I've got a stack of articles about marital outlook for people whose parents are divorced, but no time to read them. (And a firm belief that I'm wiser than my parents, to be honest, but is that hubris?) Oh, for a time when I'll have my feet under me again at work and at home and have more time on reading.....
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Of course people should get married after some forethought. That should certainly be the goal. I'm at a loss as to how to encourage this to happen -- especially in a world of pro-abstinence, anti-birth-control sex education which as a result seems to encourage rushing into things for nookie.
Wow, I guess I had a rant brewing.
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I definitely agree with the stable SSM vs broken het marriage point. But yeah - even in the best of situations, divorce isn't good for kids, and I feel like your and lemur's patterns are not uncommon.
Somehow I'm reminded of the current contrast with the hoops and hurdles that Americans have to go through these days when they want to marry a non-U.S. citizen and bring them into this country, where you really do basically have to prove how deep and stable your commitment is. And I think that goes much too far in the other direction (poor retsuko!), but it does seem that the concept of marriage means a lot of different things to different people. And yes - when marriage is seen as a way to get nookie, bad consequences are almost inevitable.
So, um, yay for forethought?
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Even assuming that children won't be present with SSM (which I agree, can be attacked) if we start recognizing relationships that aren't marriage between same sex partners, we will start seeing unmarried het couples clamoring for the same recognition. I saw this happen at Yale while a grad student. I think it's a matter of time until we see het couples registering for Civil unions in states with civil unions but no SSM. I think this would be bad for kids, hence my all or nothing position.
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The only solution that I can think of is requiring pre-marital counseling a la the Roman Catholic Church's Pre-Cana program, but how, when, and by whom is clearly a thorny issue.
The other dimension of this problem is the focus on Weddings. So many people focus on preparing for the Wedding and not the marriage, it's not surprising that people have problems after the fact.
Finally, last week I read a review of "Between Two Worlds: The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce" by Elizabeth Marquardt (Crown). It claims that even amicable divorces a negative emotional impact on children and that unhappy marriages have less of one. I haven't yet read the book, so I don't know how much credit to give it. Information was apparently collected via interview and telephone survey of "young adults" both from divorced and in tact families. I'm curious to read it though.
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I am 100% with you on counseling, I think it should be encouraged, but even if it is, not everyone will do it.
What I hear from our generation is that enough of us grew up in a divorced household to understand how much it damages kids that we are willing to extend ourselves not to let it happen again. I sincerely hope this will be the case.
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True enough, but--thinking about that situation--I do wonder what would have happened if you had married him and had children, and whether that would have been a better outcome.
Delaying marriage may well have helped you dodge a bullet.
(But, well, I've been in a long term relationship for quite a while, so you know what my biases are. :) )
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Don't get me wrong, my childhood wasn't particularly happy, but I think that mostly came from who I was, and I'm not sure how much it could have been improved. The lack of money that comes from living with a single mother was probably the biggest negative effect of the divorce. But, given my father, I think my childhood was *more* stable because of the divorce, not less. So yeah, I think I'm happy that my parents had the option of a relatively easy divorce that let them fashion such radically different lives.
Supporting the idea of no fault divorce doesn't mean that you can't also support taking marriage seriously, though. It's sort of like abortion -- I believe it should be safe, legal and rare.
Not to stray too far into another area of controversy, but I do find a common framework in the way I think about both get into any abortion rants) The clearly best solution is to be responsible from the get go, think about what you're doing, and not take any life-changing steps until you're ready for them. But that's not the way the real world works, and it's important to have a way for people to adjust for changing circumstances, poor decisions, and flat out bad luck. And I've seen enough people turn sour and spread misery because they felt trapped or were unpreparred for either marriage or parenthood to underestimate the negative repercussions of both.
As to how to get people to take marriage more seriously, I'm not sure. But I take the institution more seriously knowing that it's something I've deliberately choosen to enter into, not because it was expected, but because I think the reward will be worth the work. In this respect, I think changing attitudes about the necessity and nature of marriage may well stregthen it in the long run.
Overall, though, it boils down to people need to be much more responsible about both their marriages and their children. And how on earth do we accomplish that?
-PS
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Yes you do. :)
*waves*
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"Marry in haste, repent at leisure."
It's as true as it's ever been.
When people wring their hands about the divorce rate, I observe that it's just too easy to get married. I do grant, however, that the reason why marriage is easy is that this society wants to discourage illegitimate births.
I think it boils down to whether one thinks divorce is worse than bastardy. Single-parent households are also problematic.
One problem is that biology makes copulation easy and quick, but parenting is difficult and takes a long time.
Another problem is that we have structured our society so that education is an advantage, but education takes a long time, which means that people wishing to improve themselves need to spend their prime childbearing years getting educated.
These are not simple problems.
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Mostly, I wanted to observe that it's not a cost-free decision: it really is about balancing between childlessness, out-of-wedlock children, unhappy marriages, and divorces. And none of those decisions are particularly easy.
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There are happy marriages with kids, and happy marriages of people who have chosen to be childfree, and happy people who have decided not to get married. None of those outcomes is particularly a problem. (There are probably plenty of other outcomes I can't think of off the top of my head; again, this is not a comprehensive list. :) )
Problem outcomes sound depressing? Sure. If they didn't, they wouldn't be such a problem.