posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 08:00pm on 11/03/2009
I'd add Yael and Judith to the list, incidentally - who also use sexuality, yes, but again in proactive, patriotic ways. I think the major distinction I'm drawing is between women who are active and those who are reactive - although the question of textual reaction to the acts of these women is certainly important, you're right. So what frustrates me about Esther is that I feel like she is shown acting out of personal fear, rather than selfless patriotism or devotion to others, and then she's really brutal to Haman and his family.

Regarding the joke issue - interesting. Coming from the perspective of someone who studies strongly misogynistic cultures, this sounded like a reiteration of basic patriarchal principles; the King is reasserting his and all husbands' authority, because Vashti has challenged it. He's just demonstrated his control by punishing her so strongly for her act of defiance.

You seem to want to separate "feminism" from "use of female sexuality," which I find intriguing here. I would argue that any ancient text which shows a woman as a clever, independent agent acting in pursuit of praiseworthy goals is feminist, because it does not (like most ancient texts) reduce women to property or male appendages. The primary tools available to women in the ancient world were their sexuality and their familial connections; I don't criticize them or see it as unfeminist when they use those successfully. How else exactly is Yael supposed to get close enough to Sisera to kill him? To view it otherwise suggests that women are only capable of virtuous acts when asexual or when "acting like men."
 
posted by [identity profile] stone-and-star.livejournal.com at 10:16pm on 11/03/2009
Yes, the king is reasserting his authority - he's not joking. I just have the sense that there's kind of a wink to the audience from the author at this point.

I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't wrestle with ancient texts the way they are! I totally agree with that. But I don't always think you can pick a piece of text out and not look at later parts. Like in the flood story, it's significant that vegetarianism was preferred, but also that it was superseded.

I also do agree that stories of women acting as independent agents count as feminist. My point was that I don't see Esther as being very different from the other women you mentioned. Both Esther and Ruth have reactive elements to their behavior. They both use their sexuality to achieve goals that they decide are important after a family member talks to them about the situation. You say that Esther seems to be acting out of fear; to me Ruth seems kind of passive in the Boaz situation. And why is Esther acting out of personal fear any worse than Hannah acting out of personal distress at being childless?

Yael is a good point. I can't argue with Yael being an active agent (though I don't like the violence in that story).

Cruel to Haman - he was going to wipe out the Jews, I'm not sympathetic. Cruel to his sons - I hear that. I've never known what to do with the emphasis on the sons.

I'm not familiar with the book of Judith at all - I'm out of my element once we leave the Tanakh.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 10:59pm on 11/03/2009
Yeah, I wasn't sure whether Judith was counted in your apocryphal texts.

Yael's morality is definitely questionable, but certainly not her actions. :)

Re Haman -yeah, there it's a matter of justice, although allowing the king to think he's molesting her seems questionable. It's really the sons where I get distressed.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 11:00pm on 11/03/2009
I think Ruth is passive re Boaz, but not initially with regard to Naomi.

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