TV potential rec, and Random Lit/Media Question [orichalcum]

Kings premieres tonight at 8 PM on NBC. It is a modern drama based on a retelling of the Biblical accounts of Kings Saul and David, set in a 21st century monarchical pseudo-America (at war with its northern neighbor, "Gath.") It's gotten good if mixed reviews, and seems like an intriguing premise, at any rate. I'll be checking it out - pretty much mandatory for any scholar of ancient reception studies - and curious to hear your thoughts.

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On another, more academic question - I'm looking for examples of psychologically healthy, positive mother-daughter relationships in literature (broadly defined) or other media _written by men._ I'm writing an article right now about mother-daughter relationships in Greek and Roman literature (specifically among prostitutes), and am curious if part of what's going on is a broader pattern of male writers imposing conflict and dysfunction on mother-daughter relationships because they don't have access to information about more normal mother-daughter relationships or are unnerved by their exclusion from such relationships. Any ones you can think of? I've been running through Shakespeare and the Western canon in my head and I'm pretty well stuck. Sure, there are plenty of examples like _Little Women_, but on the other side you wind up with what, _The Glass Menagerie_?

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Wow, I'm drawing a blank. I can't believe I'd never noticed that gap. The closest I can think of off-hand is Miss Pross and Lucie Manette from A Tale of Two Cities. Will think on it more, though.

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And that's a mother-like relationship, but governesses/nannies are often put in to contrast with the heartlessness/absence of the real mother, as in Romeo & Juliet, where Lady Capulet is totally selfish and ambitious, but the Nurse is caring and generous.

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Hmm. Two other possibilities: Hester Prynne and Pearl? Demeter and Persephone?

I personally think there's a bunch of evidence that the central text regarding Demeter and Persephone (Homeric Hymn to Demeter) was largely composed by women, so that doesn't count. Does Pearl get old enough to have a meaningful relationship? I can't remember.

Yes, if I remember correctly, but how awful is it that I can only come up with one?!

I mean, frankly, I've been thinking for 5-10 minutes now, and I have yet to come up with a piece of literature by a man that HAS a meaningful mother-daughter relationship, much less a positive one. I mean, I'm sure I'm forgetting some obvious ones, but it's not exactly a usual focus. Man. (no pun intended.)

On the other hand, how many psychologically healthy, positive father-son relationships are there? (I ask this seriously, not to scoff rhetorically.) Writers do tend to write dysfunctional more than functional relationships.

I thought about that, but actually, lots. I mean, depending somewhat on your def of "psychologically healthy," but "positive loving relationships" - well, in the Iliad there's Nestor and his sons, the Odyssey has Odysseus and Telemachos, the Aeneid has Anchises and Aeneas, there's lots in Greek tragedy (as well as totally messed up ones, of course), and then once we get to, say, Shakespeare there's Henry Bolingbroke and John of Gaunt, various families in the Scottish play, and other ones I'm forgetting right now, and a bunch from novels - Bilbo and Frodo come to mind in more recent works, for instance. There's also plenty of healthy mother-son relationships and father-daughter relationships (especially in Shakespeare on the father-daughter side of things, possibly not irrelevantly related to personal exp.) It's just mother-daughter where I'm really finding a huge gap.

the problem is that boys tend to write about boys.

and girls tend to write about boys, too.

mostly because boys usually get to do all the fun stuff, and girls do all the feeling, and it's easier to write action than emotion. *ttthbt*

my best guess is there is something in EM Forster or John Irving? though that comes up against the other problem, which is that most women characters are there for being in a romance with the male character, and the only mothers around are usually getting in the way of the romance, ergo evil!

I recognize why this happens...but it's still a pretty startling gap given that it's one of the most common human relationships.

This is pathetic, but the only one I can think of is the Weasleys.

I thought about

jab2's Irving suggestion. There are mother-daughter relationships in those books that are treated seriously--eg A Widow for One Year, Hotel New Hampshire--but they are not exactly healthy and indeed a major theme of his novels is how absent mothers affect the children. Come to think of it, I think there are minor character mother-daughter relationships in both of those books in which one or both are prostitutes, which may interest you.

Ooh, good to know. And Potter doesn't count anyway - written by a woman.

Duh--I spent enough time thinking about the question that I forgot some of the parameters. Sorry!

Not a problem- just an illustration of what makes it so surprisingly difficult!

I've just scanned my book shelf, and the thing I noticed is that authors still rely on the old fairytale trick: girls (and boys too) who have adventures are motherless. Since mothers keep us out of trouble only orphans are interesting to writers.

I haven't read it, but The Color of Water might have one. And there's Mrs. Cratchet in A Christmas Carol although very brief. Steel Magnolias was written by a man. That has a great mother-daughter relationship.

I'm actually trying to think of any non-young adult novel which has a healthy relationship between mother and daughter and am having a tough time coming up with any. This may be either because: a) people like to write about conflict so there really aren't a lot of healthy mother daughter (or parent-child for that matter) relationships in fiction, or b) I only remember relationships in books when there is conflict.

Vaguely remember Sean Stewart's _Cloud's End_ having good relationships between female characters but cannot now remember if mother daughter is one of them.

Well, you are all doing a great job of not making me feel like a fool for not being able to think of any! And I don't think the conflict argument works, just because there are so many father-son and mother-son central relationships.

Haven't read _Cloud's End_ in too long.

Right, but do you have any examples of healthy mother-daughter relationships in any non-young adult fiction (written by women or otherwise)? I can't come up with any off the top of my head.

I don't think of Little Women as exclusively YA, though there's an argument there, and it's certainly one of the major examples. In Austen, there's Mrs. Dashwood in S&S - flawed but certainly loving. Among female playwrights, we get Wendy Wasserstein and Caryl Churchill, who both feature such relationships.

I wouldn't describe the Mrs. Dashwood relationship as particularly healthy--there's a strong intimation that Eleanor has to mother her, rather than the other way around, and that her behavior is a lot of what causes Marianne's downfall. The mothers in P&P, Mansfield Park, S&S, and the mother figure in Persuasion are all depicted as being responsible for their daughters' troubles. The mother in Northanger Abbey may be blameless and beloved but basically offscreen. And Emma of course has no mother at all. Emma's relationship with her governess is probably the healthiest of any mother-figure/daughter relationship in Austen.

Edit: In fact, I've posted about this before, when it was fresher in my mind, and I seem to have come to the same conclusion.

I think Julian has a reasonable argument--I can't think of any healthy major character mother-daughter relationships, and I think it's probably because of what everyone's been saying on this thread, namely that drama requires conflict. If it's going to be a major relationship in a book it's going to have problems.

Again, what about Little Women? And what about all the other healthy parental relationships that aren't mother-daughter?

Regarding Mrs. D. - she's not an admirable figure in and of herself, but I think that the actual relationship between her and her daughters is loving and generous, even if Mrs. D. and M. are both total flakes.

Well I think the whole thing comes down to what you define as healthy/loving. I think you're working with a looser definition than I was imagining, but that's probably reasonable considering I'm still drawing a blank on ones written by men either way.

Oddly enough, I have never read Little Women. As a child I was sufficiently afraid of getting to the death and when I tried to come back to it later I found the writing hopelessly dull and couldn't get through it.

Yeah, I had to expand my categories a bit to try and get a better sample set...

LW is more some folks' cup of tea than others. I like it, but then, I still adore "Five Little Peppers" too.

I was wondering the same thing, but am coming up with some by women after looking over my reading lists:

Bean Trees
Charms for the Easy Life (relationship with grandmother is better, but the one with the mother isn't bad)
Mazel
Tree Grows in Brooklyn

Cheaper By the Dozen is co-written by a man and a woman...

So I actually watched part of Kings last night. I watched about the middle hour (8:30 to 9:30). It was interesting. It felt a little like the happy shiny bits of BSG. I liked the set and costumes--alien enough but not too alien and they captured the sense of "golden age" pretty well. The writing was interesting. The diction and word choice felt formal and deliberate. It bordered on slightly annoying, but again, provided a meaningful difference from "normal" drama without inventing too many new silly words. It felt more like a play than TV. The characters felt a little flat. It will be interesting to see how they develop. All in all, I'd watch it again, but I'm more likely to get the dvds and watch it all together than to try to keep up with the TV. I'm not one for appointment viewing!

What did you think?

Very similar response - awesome set design, some neat world stuff, but a little stilted currently.

As was written above, I thought of the Bean Trees and A Tree Grows in Broklyn too. Also, The Little House Series. Maeve Binchy has several in several different books. For male authors, I still like Steel Magnolias. Also, Peter Pan -- Mrs. Darling is a very interesting, loving mother in the book. Also written by a man.

orichalcum

TV potential rec, and Random Lit/Media Question

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Kings

Re: Kings

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April