posted by
orichalcum at 03:01pm on 02/03/2005
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A couple of things I'd like reactions from all you intelligent folk out there. (Apologies if I lapse into Firefly-speak; we just blitzed the whole series.)
So, 239 pages later, with a complete draft, the thesis of my dissertation turns out to be that Roman elite males were anxious about the role of female prostitutes and condemned their excessive influence not because they despised female sexual activity or even female economic activity but because prostitutes were definitionally not loyal members of a family with a permanent bond to a specific man. Unlike the conventional ideal of the Roman matron, prostitutes were somewhat independent units who exerted power and influence on their lovers as means of enriching themselves or benefiting the current object of their affections, rather than because of permanent ties. They were disloyal and hence untrustworthy. Most of the dissertation goes to proving this point.
In the conclusion, I argue that this anxiety about female loyalty, manifested in a condemnation of prostitutes, has persisted throughout Western history and is still evident today in the controversy over women's balancing act between family and career. An automatic assumption is still made that a woman will still inherently be more loyal to her family than to her career, and, indeed, the common term for women who are the opposite is cold-hearted or selfish. Conversely, men are not viewed as making a choice between loyalties. Prostitutes are merely an extreme symptom here of women who have completely abandoned "family" for "career."
So the question is, do you think that statement is valid, do you have any nice academic studies backing it up, and so forth? I'd really appreciate people's opinions.
In another note, I'm somewhat surprised that the recent Supreme Court case on the Ten Commandments hasn't been bringing up more discussion of what seems to me to be a central issue. I think that there's room for reasonable disagreement over the presence of "religion" on federal property, and even a plausible if highly historically flawed argument that the Commandments are present as "part of the legal tradition."
However, what I find offensive about displays of the text of the Ten Commandments on government property is that they promote a specific _version_ of the Commandments by their very nature. It isn't just a deistic statement, or even a monotheistic Peoples of the Book statement: different Biblical religions and denominations count and sort out the Commandments in distinctly different ways, and religiously significantly ways! The version currently up for debate by the Justices has as the First Commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," the Protestant traditional list. But the Jewish and Catholic scriptures list the first commandment as "I am the Lord Thy God." (Hence West Wing). Not to mention debates in the 2nd Commandment about the whole graven images thing. It's not just that this is offensive to atheists - it's offensive to 40% of the country or so, or should be.
What do folks think about this?
So, 239 pages later, with a complete draft, the thesis of my dissertation turns out to be that Roman elite males were anxious about the role of female prostitutes and condemned their excessive influence not because they despised female sexual activity or even female economic activity but because prostitutes were definitionally not loyal members of a family with a permanent bond to a specific man. Unlike the conventional ideal of the Roman matron, prostitutes were somewhat independent units who exerted power and influence on their lovers as means of enriching themselves or benefiting the current object of their affections, rather than because of permanent ties. They were disloyal and hence untrustworthy. Most of the dissertation goes to proving this point.
In the conclusion, I argue that this anxiety about female loyalty, manifested in a condemnation of prostitutes, has persisted throughout Western history and is still evident today in the controversy over women's balancing act between family and career. An automatic assumption is still made that a woman will still inherently be more loyal to her family than to her career, and, indeed, the common term for women who are the opposite is cold-hearted or selfish. Conversely, men are not viewed as making a choice between loyalties. Prostitutes are merely an extreme symptom here of women who have completely abandoned "family" for "career."
So the question is, do you think that statement is valid, do you have any nice academic studies backing it up, and so forth? I'd really appreciate people's opinions.
In another note, I'm somewhat surprised that the recent Supreme Court case on the Ten Commandments hasn't been bringing up more discussion of what seems to me to be a central issue. I think that there's room for reasonable disagreement over the presence of "religion" on federal property, and even a plausible if highly historically flawed argument that the Commandments are present as "part of the legal tradition."
However, what I find offensive about displays of the text of the Ten Commandments on government property is that they promote a specific _version_ of the Commandments by their very nature. It isn't just a deistic statement, or even a monotheistic Peoples of the Book statement: different Biblical religions and denominations count and sort out the Commandments in distinctly different ways, and religiously significantly ways! The version currently up for debate by the Justices has as the First Commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," the Protestant traditional list. But the Jewish and Catholic scriptures list the first commandment as "I am the Lord Thy God." (Hence West Wing). Not to mention debates in the 2nd Commandment about the whole graven images thing. It's not just that this is offensive to atheists - it's offensive to 40% of the country or so, or should be.
What do folks think about this?
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As for the Ten Commandmants issue, well, that's complicated. Establishing guidelines can be a byzantine task as one tries to factor in all possible situations. For instance, I believe erecting a public shrine to them in a courthouse would be a bad idea, but displaying Moses with them along with Hammurabi, Confucious, and Napoleon as a decorative piece illustrating the long tradition of law would be fine. Seldom are cases so clear-cut though, and thus the need for overly-extensive rules on their exhibition.
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I would do actual searching for you but I don't have the time right now. Hope this stuff helps!
(no subject)
IIRC from my Religion and the Law class last year, most Judeo-Christian religious groups advocating a place for religion in public life aren't offended when "someone else's version" of the ten commandments are put up; they're just happy it's there. Things obviously get different when you're dealing with nativity scenes; those are hard cases which make ridiculously bad law. (The case I remember, County of Allegheny v. ACLU, got rid of a nativity in the center of the foyer of a court house (though privately funded, the placement and legend "Gloria in excelsis" on top made it seem like state endorsement), while a christmas tree, giant menorah and "a sign saluting liberty" were OK. Concurring opinions all round, of course -- nobody could agree on why, so everyone looks to the Kennedy and O'Connor tests (either, does it make members of other faiths feel coerced, or does it appear to be state endorsement of religion). One of the dissents accused the court of engaging in interior decorating. (There are apparently pictures of the displays in the US reports, but I haven't looked them up.))
But then, establishment clause jurisprudence is a mess to start with, as this hopefully made clear. Damned Lemon test.
Hmm...that's interesting
But the words are important, both in law and religion.
Re: Hmm...that's interesting
Roman numerals on the Ten Commandments in the name of compromise, eh? ;)
Re: Hmm...that's interesting
So, coveted your neighbor's ass lately?
Re: Hmm...that's interesting
Or did you just mean that it would be less confusing to have simply numbers (Roman, Arabic ("regular"), Hebrew, or something else) rather than having the actual commandments listed with someone's version of which is which number attached?
-MJNH
(no subject)
I think there's a good chance that O'Connor will join Breyer, Stevens, Souter and Ginzburg on this one, it's just too similar to Allegheny to pass muster
(no subject)
As for the 10 commandments question, I always have a somewhat cranky urge to turn the question around. For example, how about posting the Buddhist five precepts? It covers some of the same ground as the 10 commandments (not killing, not stealing, etc.). If it's the morals/ethics that are the important point, it shouldn't matter which religion they come from (or if they come from any).
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Interestingly
I personally feel that it's fine for the State to put up a memorial honoring religion, but if they do it they have to make the good faith effort to honor all religion. If you want to make a secular statement about how one should live one's life, that's fine too, but then it should be a secular statement, I'd have no problem with a big sign saying, for instance, "Thou shalt not kill" but it needs to be a secular statement and I'm not sure how "I am the Lord thy God" isn't a purely religious statement, it's an instruction on how to conduct your religious life.
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Woman who stays home to raise family: good.
Woman who works hard: bitch.
Man who works hard: good.
Man who stays home to raise family: why can't he get a job?
I trust it goes without saying that I reject these gender labor divisions, but Larry Summers, among others, does not.
(Obviously, you shouldn't take my description as the final word on what Summers said. My summary is deliberately provoking. Reading his actual words is strongly encouraged.)
(no subject)
What we have now is a situation where women who want careers have to fulfill expectations for productivity for someone who has all of their domestic details taken care of by another person. What we need is a work system that more effectively allows people to be productive from a career sense and to see to their own family needs.
I have somewhat utopian visions of perhaps owning my own business someday where I have my kids come to the office after school. Maybe even full onsite day-care center for my employees' kids too. This way I could work long hours if I had to, and still see my kids. As I said, utopian.
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I'm not bashing men here - I really don't think that contemporary men have necessarily been getting a good deal from the traditional division of labor, either.
(no subject)
1. Why is it considered reasonable for anyone to work 80 hours a week?
2. Why is it that men are expected to sacrifice family responsibilities for work, while women are expected to sacrifice work responsibilities for family?
I think changing the expectations behind either question would exert pressure on the expectations behind the other, but I do see them as independent.
I also consider them both intolerable, but unfortunately, extremely well ingrained.
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Interestingly enough, as I'm sure you know, "working girl" is a euphemism for prostitute (I think used most widely in earlier eras, but even so), as if the only thing a woman had to offer the world was her sexual potential, and she could either use it privately, in the context of family, or publicly, as a prostitute.
Another thought I had was how all this might reflect on the current pop culture narrative trope of the "hooker with a heart of gold". But that maybe out of the range of your thesis.
As for corrollary discussions, I liked karakara98's assertion that:
What we have now is a situation where women who want careers have to fulfill expectations for productivity for someone who has all of their domestic details taken care of by another person. What we need is a work system that more effectively allows people to be productive from a career sense and to see to their own family needs.
I have always been frustrated by the fact that women are expected to choose between family and career, whereas men can "have both", ignoring the fact that men can only have both because there is traditionally a woman in the wings taking care of the domestic half of this "all". Here, in terms of social status, the man is no less a father despite farming out his dometic responsibilities, whereas a woman would be considered less of (a good) mother if she did the same. And yet, if a woman does attempt to have a professional life, and her domestic attention slides, pundits blame her choices rather than demand the man step up his domestic attentions.
It's kind of like Cinderella, in which Cindy can only attend the ball if she can also finish all her chores, which everyone knows is impossible.
Thanks
Men are expected to have a number of synchronous and noncompetitive loyalties: to country, to family, to career/company, to organized social community (sports team, Masons, etc...) Women are expected to have a hierarchy of loyalties - think about how many people would react if a woman abandoned her kids to attend a favorite baseball game with her female friends.
thanks for everybody's comments; they've reinforced my general ideas very well.