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posted by [personal profile] orichalcum at 03:01pm on 02/03/2005
A couple of things I'd like reactions from all you intelligent folk out there. (Apologies if I lapse into Firefly-speak; we just blitzed the whole series.)

So, 239 pages later, with a complete draft, the thesis of my dissertation turns out to be that Roman elite males were anxious about the role of female prostitutes and condemned their excessive influence not because they despised female sexual activity or even female economic activity but because prostitutes were definitionally not loyal members of a family with a permanent bond to a specific man. Unlike the conventional ideal of the Roman matron, prostitutes were somewhat independent units who exerted power and influence on their lovers as means of enriching themselves or benefiting the current object of their affections, rather than because of permanent ties. They were disloyal and hence untrustworthy. Most of the dissertation goes to proving this point.

In the conclusion, I argue that this anxiety about female loyalty, manifested in a condemnation of prostitutes, has persisted throughout Western history and is still evident today in the controversy over women's balancing act between family and career. An automatic assumption is still made that a woman will still inherently be more loyal to her family than to her career, and, indeed, the common term for women who are the opposite is cold-hearted or selfish. Conversely, men are not viewed as making a choice between loyalties. Prostitutes are merely an extreme symptom here of women who have completely abandoned "family" for "career."

So the question is, do you think that statement is valid, do you have any nice academic studies backing it up, and so forth? I'd really appreciate people's opinions.

In another note, I'm somewhat surprised that the recent Supreme Court case on the Ten Commandments hasn't been bringing up more discussion of what seems to me to be a central issue. I think that there's room for reasonable disagreement over the presence of "religion" on federal property, and even a plausible if highly historically flawed argument that the Commandments are present as "part of the legal tradition."

However, what I find offensive about displays of the text of the Ten Commandments on government property is that they promote a specific _version_ of the Commandments by their very nature. It isn't just a deistic statement, or even a monotheistic Peoples of the Book statement: different Biblical religions and denominations count and sort out the Commandments in distinctly different ways, and religiously significantly ways! The version currently up for debate by the Justices has as the First Commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," the Protestant traditional list. But the Jewish and Catholic scriptures list the first commandment as "I am the Lord Thy God." (Hence West Wing). Not to mention debates in the 2nd Commandment about the whole graven images thing. It's not just that this is offensive to atheists  - it's offensive to 40% of the country or so, or should be.
What do folks think about this?
Mood:: 'busy' busy
There are 21 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] gee-tar.livejournal.com at 08:27pm on 02/03/2005
Not that my opinion counts for much (I certainly don't know of any academic references), but your dissertation conclusion seems sensible enough.

As for the Ten Commandmants issue, well, that's complicated. Establishing guidelines can be a byzantine task as one tries to factor in all possible situations. For instance, I believe erecting a public shrine to them in a courthouse would be a bad idea, but displaying Moses with them along with Hammurabi, Confucious, and Napoleon as a decorative piece illustrating the long tradition of law would be fine. Seldom are cases so clear-cut though, and thus the need for overly-extensive rules on their exhibition.
 
posted by [identity profile] digitalemur.livejournal.com at 08:56pm on 02/03/2005
I'm thinking folk should search for (women AND family AND career) on databases until they get some studies. I tried it briefly on ProQuest and Academic Search Premiere this morning and saw a lot of stuff that wasn't the Newsweek supermom article I was looking for at the time (that article is frickin terrifying, btw). If you don't limit to academic/scholarly journals, you should at least get the Chronicle of Higher Education's regular fortellings of doom about women balancing career and families from ProQuest since they index it back to 1988. The Chron talks about this a LOT and they should point you to some studies.

I would do actual searching for you but I don't have the time right now. Hope this stuff helps!
 
posted by [identity profile] outlawradio.livejournal.com at 08:58pm on 02/03/2005
Re ten commandments (since I've actually studied this topic):

IIRC from my Religion and the Law class last year, most Judeo-Christian religious groups advocating a place for religion in public life aren't offended when "someone else's version" of the ten commandments are put up; they're just happy it's there. Things obviously get different when you're dealing with nativity scenes; those are hard cases which make ridiculously bad law. (The case I remember, County of Allegheny v. ACLU, got rid of a nativity in the center of the foyer of a court house (though privately funded, the placement and legend "Gloria in excelsis" on top made it seem like state endorsement), while a christmas tree, giant menorah and "a sign saluting liberty" were OK. Concurring opinions all round, of course -- nobody could agree on why, so everyone looks to the Kennedy and O'Connor tests (either, does it make members of other faiths feel coerced, or does it appear to be state endorsement of religion). One of the dissents accused the court of engaging in interior decorating. (There are apparently pictures of the displays in the US reports, but I haven't looked them up.))

But then, establishment clause jurisprudence is a mess to start with, as this hopefully made clear. Damned Lemon test.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 09:07pm on 02/03/2005
I mean, part of my reaction is, "but that's sloppy religion!" but then I like my religion heavily text-based. OTOH, it is an important point if the advocacy groups don't care, although it still matters if the protestors do. For instance, I have much less objection to a picture of two tablets with the Roman numerals I-X on them, particularly when next to Confucius/Hammurabi/etc...

But the words are important, both in law and religion.
 
posted by [identity profile] outlawradio.livejournal.com at 09:55pm on 02/03/2005
I'm with you on this, it's the courts who are not. It continually irks me, makes me feel coerced, makes me feel like the state's endorsing religion, whatever. Of course, the court would never consider me a reasonable observer anyway. (It also leads to bad law, which irritates me almost as much as complacently accepted public displays of dominant religion which are *never* my own, nor those of many of my friends.)

Roman numerals on the Ten Commandments in the name of compromise, eh? ;)
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 10:21pm on 02/03/2005
Or regular numbers for all I care, but Roman numerals are more aesthetically pleasing and not as potentially confusing as, say, the Hebrew counting system.

So, coveted your neighbor's ass lately?
 
posted by (anonymous) at 01:24am on 03/03/2005
Aside from the fact that most Americans can't read Hebrew, what is confusing about Hebrew numbers?

Or did you just mean that it would be less confusing to have simply numbers (Roman, Arabic ("regular"), Hebrew, or something else) rather than having the actual commandments listed with someone's version of which is which number attached?

-MJNH
 
posted by [identity profile] julianyap.livejournal.com at 03:39am on 03/03/2005
If it's any consolation, 9 out of 10 of my Professors thinkt hat the court wants to get away from the Lemon test. Course, there's no telling what they'll come up with instead.

I think there's a good chance that O'Connor will join Breyer, Stevens, Souter and Ginzburg on this one, it's just too similar to Allegheny to pass muster
 
posted by [identity profile] kenjari.livejournal.com at 11:00pm on 02/03/2005
I think your dissertation thesis sounds pretty valid. I don't know of any academic materials to back it up, but it did bring to mind a couple of experiences from my own life, as someone who has chosen not to have children. First is that my mother has always insisted that women can't really "have it all" and that they did have to choose between children and a career. Yet she quickly changed her tune when I chose the career, insisting that I could find a way to have a family, too. I'm pretty sure that she would not have insisted so strongly on my ability to have a career too if I had chosen children over a career. By the way, I don't agree with her "one or the other but never both" assessment. The other experience is that my Mom once accused me of being selfish for not having children. I fail to see what is selfish about not having children that I don't feel I would be willing or able to adequately parent.

As for the 10 commandments question, I always have a somewhat cranky urge to turn the question around. For example, how about posting the Buddhist five precepts? It covers some of the same ground as the 10 commandments (not killing, not stealing, etc.). If it's the morals/ethics that are the important point, it shouldn't matter which religion they come from (or if they come from any).
 
posted by [identity profile] kenjari.livejournal.com at 11:18pm on 02/03/2005
I should say, by way of a disclaimer, that I am not a Buddhist myself, nor an expert on Buddhism. And I'm not really advocating it as an alternative to Judeo-Christian faiths. I thought it made a particularly apt example (and one for which there are easily available sources).
 
posted by [identity profile] julianyap.livejournal.com at 03:37am on 03/03/2005
My ConLaw professor argued the case before the Supreme Court this morning.

I personally feel that it's fine for the State to put up a memorial honoring religion, but if they do it they have to make the good faith effort to honor all religion. If you want to make a secular statement about how one should live one's life, that's fine too, but then it should be a secular statement, I'd have no problem with a big sign saying, for instance, "Thou shalt not kill" but it needs to be a secular statement and I'm not sure how "I am the Lord thy God" isn't a purely religious statement, it's an instruction on how to conduct your religious life.
 
posted by [identity profile] stolen-tea.livejournal.com at 07:47am on 03/03/2005
I've said it before, what's the fun of putting up the 10 commandments in a courthouse, when you could instead put up a giant stone tablet engraved with "judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven"... :>
 
posted by [identity profile] mrmorse.livejournal.com at 01:21pm on 03/03/2005
I think the Larry Summers controversy at Harvard University about women and science ties into your thesis. The question is, why are there so few women science professors. His first answer is that women are genetically inferior. His second answer is that women, unlike men, are unwilling to sacrifice their family life by working 80 hours a week. (At this point, my question is, "why is it reasonable to even allow people to work 80 hours a week," but that's not really the point right now.) The belief that men are able and willing to work extreme hours while women are not is directly tied to gender roles.

Woman who stays home to raise family: good.
Woman who works hard: bitch.
Man who works hard: good.
Man who stays home to raise family: why can't he get a job?

I trust it goes without saying that I reject these gender labor divisions, but Larry Summers, among others, does not.

(Obviously, you shouldn't take my description as the final word on what Summers said. My summary is deliberately provoking. Reading his actual words is strongly encouraged.)
 
posted by [identity profile] karakara98.livejournal.com at 03:30pm on 03/03/2005
But I think general work-life balance *is* the point right now. The reason that women have to choose between career and family is that our society is set up for a division of labor where one person (traditionally a woman) takes care of home & family and another person (traditionally a man) goes out into the world and has a career. What happened in the twentieth century is that the labor requirements of taking care of home and family were reduced such that they weren't necessarily enough to make full use of a woman's talents for organization (historians please correct me, but I've long had an image of running a medieval household/farm as being akin to running a small business now). Women then wanted to use their talents outside the home, but still have disproportionate domestic responsibility.

What we have now is a situation where women who want careers have to fulfill expectations for productivity for someone who has all of their domestic details taken care of by another person. What we need is a work system that more effectively allows people to be productive from a career sense and to see to their own family needs.

I have somewhat utopian visions of perhaps owning my own business someday where I have my kids come to the office after school. Maybe even full onsite day-care center for my employees' kids too. This way I could work long hours if I had to, and still see my kids. As I said, utopian.
 
posted by [identity profile] kenjari.livejournal.com at 05:47pm on 03/03/2005
Yes indeed. I've often thought that the career-family issue is too focused on what women can/should be doing, and how they have to fit two roles into their lives. There has been too little discussion of how men can/should reconfigure their roles regarding career and family, too.
I'm not bashing men here - I really don't think that contemporary men have necessarily been getting a good deal from the traditional division of labor, either.
 
posted by [identity profile] mrmorse.livejournal.com at 10:55pm on 03/03/2005
I see two separate questions here.

1. Why is it considered reasonable for anyone to work 80 hours a week?

2. Why is it that men are expected to sacrifice family responsibilities for work, while women are expected to sacrifice work responsibilities for family?

I think changing the expectations behind either question would exert pressure on the expectations behind the other, but I do see them as independent.

I also consider them both intolerable, but unfortunately, extremely well ingrained.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 11:49pm on 03/03/2005
So, I don't see #2 as two sides of the same issue, historically speaking. I think that the default assumption is that the "normal" man gets to spend as much time with his family as he would conceivably want, especially as, drawing on karakara's earlier comments, that time is traditionally not doing chores or the irritating side of running a household and parenting, but quality leisure time. In contrast, there is no such thing as "too much family time" expected that a woman would ideally want, and therefore adding a career is necessarily a subtraction from the ideal amount of family time = 100%. Now, the desires/expectations _of_ men in the last 30 years have significantly changed so that they do want more family time, but this is still battling against a societal norm. And the American 80 hours/week schedule is crazy and dangerous, especially for young doctors.
 
posted by [identity profile] adamhmorse.livejournal.com at 04:50pm on 03/03/2005
FWIW, his first answer was actually the willingness to sacrifice family for work. Sex-linked inferiority was his second explanation (in order of his estimate of significance.)
 
posted by [identity profile] mrmorse.livejournal.com at 11:02pm on 03/03/2005
I should have included a link to his comments. The URL for the official transcript is http://www.president.harvard.edu/speeches/2005/nber.html
 
posted by [identity profile] epilimnion.livejournal.com at 06:54pm on 03/03/2005
I think your thesis makes great sense. I think it is also interesting to note that prostitutes are an extreme example of the career/family split because they turn one of the most essential elements (and often most tightly controlled in moral terms) of family life: sex and procreation, into a business. So it's not jsut choosing career over family, it is turning the procreative, family-making act into a career and thus removing it from the family-life context.

Interestingly enough, as I'm sure you know, "working girl" is a euphemism for prostitute (I think used most widely in earlier eras, but even so), as if the only thing a woman had to offer the world was her sexual potential, and she could either use it privately, in the context of family, or publicly, as a prostitute.

Another thought I had was how all this might reflect on the current pop culture narrative trope of the "hooker with a heart of gold". But that maybe out of the range of your thesis.

As for corrollary discussions, I liked karakara98's assertion that:

What we have now is a situation where women who want careers have to fulfill expectations for productivity for someone who has all of their domestic details taken care of by another person. What we need is a work system that more effectively allows people to be productive from a career sense and to see to their own family needs.

I have always been frustrated by the fact that women are expected to choose between family and career, whereas men can "have both", ignoring the fact that men can only have both because there is traditionally a woman in the wings taking care of the domestic half of this "all". Here, in terms of social status, the man is no less a father despite farming out his dometic responsibilities, whereas a woman would be considered less of (a good) mother if she did the same. And yet, if a woman does attempt to have a professional life, and her domestic attention slides, pundits blame her choices rather than demand the man step up his domestic attentions.

It's kind of like Cinderella, in which Cindy can only attend the ball if she can also finish all her chores, which everyone knows is impossible.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 08:14pm on 03/03/2005
While I totally agree that there ought to be emphasis on how men can balance family-career responsibilities, part of the point of the dissertation is that the general social assumption is that this is only an issue for women, and that that assumption has its origin in Roman attitudes. I have a whole section about "working girls" and an entire chapter about "hookers with a heart of gold," fyi, which are also tropes that significantly originate in ancient Rome. :)

Men are expected to have a number of synchronous and noncompetitive loyalties: to country, to family, to career/company, to organized social community (sports team, Masons, etc...) Women are expected to have a hierarchy of loyalties - think about how many people would react if a woman abandoned her kids to attend a favorite baseball game with her female friends.

thanks for everybody's comments; they've reinforced my general ideas very well.

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