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posted by [personal profile] orichalcum at 02:28pm on 16/05/2005
I've been meaning to write this post for some time, inspired by a variety of things - interrogation by interviewers about what kind of feminist I was, [livejournal.com profile] contrariety's comment that she hates feminist theory, the shock and awe expressed by nearly everybody at the thought that A. was willing to move for my career prospects, the whole Lawrence Summers mess, and, oddly enough, reacting to accusations that Pope Benedict was anti-feminist.

So, the short version: I am a proud feminist in two ways, personally and professionally.



    Feminism is a creed that's gotten a bad rap in my generation, partially because of statements of people within the movement and partially because of characterizations from outside the movement. Professionally, as a scholar of ancient gender and sexuality, I use feminist theory as one of many lenses with which to examine my subject material. It would be narrow and lazy not to use the tools feminist theory has given me, although also I must measure it against other theories and methodologies.


But, more practically, let's talk about how I'm a feminist in my personal life. We need, of course to start with definitions.

Feminism, in my mind, has two major components:

1. The belief that women and men are entitled to equal opportunities in every sphere of life: equal pay for equal work, equal educational opportunities, equal chances to advance in one's chosen career, equal health care, equal rights and responsibilities with regard to parenting and marriage, equal athletic opportunities, and so forth.

This is the statement that it seems that most women, at least, of my generation that I know agree with, even and including the many ones who will say "But I'm not a feminist." So what else makes a feminist? In my mind, it is this second corollary:

2. Historically and currently, our social system has not allowed women such equal opportunities, and it is our duty and responsibility to work actively to make the playing field more level and to open up those opportunities and chances to all women.

This falls, unfortunately, into what I might call the affirmative action problem - that women who have not personally experienced discrimination or restriction on account of gender often tend to assume that it is merely a lack of assertiveness and deliberate choices that are holding back other women from achieving their goals. This is what has recently been called the Larry Summers argument - that most women don't really want to be high-powered full-time professionals.

It's because I agree with both #1 and #2 that I consider myself a feminist, one who has the responsibility both to set an example to other women by my own career and my own management of family and career responsibilities, to teach young women about the opportunities and potential available to them and to fight for their right to pursue their dreams, and to vote for candidates who will expand, for instance, anti-discrimination laws, childcare programs, the educational system, and defend Title IX.

The other major issue in current feminism, and the one which marks a dividing line for a lot of people, is the question as to whether or not men and women are intrinsically different in terms of their mental and emotional capabilities. (We can all agree, mostly, that there are physical differences between men and women, both in terms of sexual characteristics and in terms of, say, average lifting capacity.) It's on this side of the debate, for instance, that people have attacked Pope Benedict, who believes that there are such differences, but is also the first Pope both to directly argue for women's equal compensation under the law and to advocate the Biblical exegesis of the Adam and Eve story which presents Adam not as the first male originally, but as the first ambiguously gendered human, who is then split into _two_ to create Adam and Eve, a common modern feminist reading.

The great danger, of course, with saying that there are such differences, that women are biologically more compassionate and community-oriented, for instance, whereas men are more individualistic and ambitious, is that it's very easy to project that onto arguments that restrict both genders' opportunities to pursue lives that do not fit those patterns - for straight men to be elementary school teachers, say, or for women to be physicists and engineers. It's for this reason that my current position is that we should absolutely continue doing extensive research into the biological nature of gender differences, but that we need to be very, very careful with extrapolating out from such research into statements about what men and women ought to be doing with their lives. Women are not cookie-cutter versions of each other any more than men are, for instance.

So now I'd really like to throw this open for discussion. Do you consider yourself a feminist? Do you think there are intrinsic mental differences between the genders? Do you agree with #1, #2, or both?
Mood:: 'curious' curious
There are 16 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] redhound.livejournal.com at 07:23pm on 16/05/2005
I'm mostly going to sidestep your main point (aside from saying that I endorse both your propositions with the caveat that leveling playing fields is very difficult indeed), because I wanted to say something about one of your introductory comments.

You've cited people's surprise at A.'s willingness to relocate as evidence of certain ideas about gender on several occasions. I note, however, that I've experienced similar reactions to the idea that Jen would be willing to relocate to facilitate my going to law school.

I suspect that, at least in some cases, it's not so much surprise at the notion that the spear side of a couple would relocate as surprise that *either* side of a couple in which both partners are pursuing careers where location matters would be willing to relocate without restrictions. I admit, I was surprised that A. was willing to move to the ass end of Wyoming if necessary to facilitate your career, but I would have been equally surprised if you'd been willing to spend your life doing postdocs and the occasional adjunct gig to facilitate his.

 
posted by [identity profile] digitalemur.livejournal.com at 08:16pm on 16/05/2005
I agree with both, and I would call myself a feminist. I also think the word "feminist" has been redefined by a lot of folks to mean a particular loud, forceful way of advancing 1 and/or 2, using tactics I don't necessarily agree with. In other words, perhaps many are hearing that marvelously awful piece of jargon "feminazi," or something similar, when they hear us say "feminist."

I am terribly suspicious that there may be some average mental differences between the genders, or at least there are at birth, but I think it's going to be awfully difficult to determine the causes of those differences because of all the other stuff influencing infant minds. I think we're going to see continued resistance to the idea that a great many of them are socially constructed, even partially socially constructed. I hope this does not cause me to dig out the toy dumptrucks and tractors I played with as a kid and whack university administrators with them, because that would be assault and I've got enough trouble right now.

And I think I want to talk to you and A. some more about your perspectives on how one works out compromises over jobs and locations. I think I need to talk to A. about this, really.
 
posted by [identity profile] outlawradio.livejournal.com at 08:30pm on 16/05/2005
I hope this does not cause me to dig out the toy dumptrucks and tractors I played with as a kid and whack university administrators with them, because that would be assault and I've got enough trouble right now.

Oh, me too! Tonka. With caterpillar tracks. "Tonka" is the noise they make when bouncing off university administrators as well.

I agree with 1) and 2), and I see the havoc 2) causes as problematic, down to the definition of "level the playing field" in some instances. Also, Oelker's right on about people having problems with a tactic as much as a beliefs system about half the time; the other half, I think people think feminism is radical, women should rule all and men are inherently bad type stuff. There is probably quite some overlap in these areas.
 
posted by [identity profile] darkforge.livejournal.com at 09:38pm on 16/05/2005
I agree with #1. #2 depends on the scope of "active work" you have in mind. I think a very natural response is to say "Of course we should work actively, but we shouldn't violate any of our other important moral principles in doing that work."

It's a natural move, but it opens the door to saying that all we can do is educate people and police for discrimination, since reverse discrimination is unfair.

Regardless, I was very interested by this debate on gender differences in academia... you might be as well.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 10:44pm on 16/05/2005
I'd read discussions of the debate Darkforge mentions, and, as you might be able to tell, largely agree with the second speaker.

Re Redhound's point - while you may well be right that there's surprise about either gender making family-over-career sacrifices, much of the commentary I've received about A and my's decisions has been very specifically gendered. I don't know how generally applicable that is, but I suspect it's a trend.

In terms of the larger issue of #2 and what I mean by "leveling the playing field," it is indeed a difficult issue.

But here's where I'd start:

Gender-blind hiring for all professional positions and all selective educational institutions, at least at the first stage, where that means, for instance, names reduced to first initial and last name on all resumes, auditions and so forth behind a screen, and so on. Obviously, in situations which require interviews, the gender of the applicant will eventually get disclosed, but studies where this has been done show that you still wind up with a much higher percentage of women. It also eliminates some of the "old boys network" phenomenon.

The other place where significant inroads can and need to be made is in education, where part of teacher training needs to be instruction on gender awareness and, for instance, calling on girls and boys equally, steering them in equal percentages towards math and science and English classes, and so forth.

In my mind, this doesn't violate any moral principles, and opens a lot of doors.

 
I agree with both 1 and 2 and consider myself a feminist. I don't know whether there are ntrinsic differences between the genders. I would rather go on the assumption that there aren't until research proves otherwise, because I am strongly nurture over nature when it comes to this particular case.

As to where to begin with #2, I would start with childcare related things actually. Or more flexibility in scheduling somehow. As long as there is a man who has no family or (more problematic) is willing to work as though this is the case, there will be fewer positions available for women AND men who are willing to put their families first. I guess while I still see a massive number of problems with general gender equality, I feel as though once motherhood is introduced, everything returns to prefeminist days.

There's a great book I read called "The Price of Motherhood" by Ann Crittenden. I've heard she's a "women stay at home" proponent, which is a shame if it's true because I think that more people on both sides of the debate should read her book. She makes some really valid points which could be applied to either side of the debate.
 
Oh, also your education thing.

That sentence came off really flippantly, but that's not how I meant it at all.
 
posted by [identity profile] contrariety.livejournal.com at 03:43am on 17/05/2005
Haven't read all this yet (have to finish a take-home final and am merely procrastinating) but feel I must note that I do describe myself as a feminist, and am in fact on board with that movement that wants women to stand up and do that more often.

However, I also stand by the not liking feminist theory inasmuch as one *can* not like an entire theory field, which is to say that it would not be something I'd voluntarily choose to read based on my existing experience, even though I am sure there is some of it out there that I would not hate and might even like, because the bulk of it that I've seen so far has generally annoyed me.

Hmm. This is making my have thoughts about difference of labels for people and labels for scholarship, and what they mean to me, and I CAN NOT sit and think about this for twenty minutes right now like I want to. Wah.
 
posted by [identity profile] digitalemur.livejournal.com at 12:15pm on 17/05/2005
Oh yeah. I don't like reading the theory either. But I don't like a lot of theory; it just isn't the way my mind works. And I find a lot of it just too depressing. But that might be my roommate's influence; she writes would I would call depressing feminist interpretations of depressing post-colonial literature.
 
posted by [identity profile] apintrix.livejournal.com at 05:05pm on 17/05/2005
I like gender/ fem theory.
\who have you read that you dislike so much?

Judith Butler is partic. good.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 06:03pm on 17/05/2005
And is a cool woman in person, too. But yeah, I certainly didn't mean to characterize contrariety as an old-fashioned misogynist or something, but rather precisely to draw distinctions between personal feminism and feminist theory.

The main problem I see with much current feminist theory is that it's gotten too divorced from its source material and the real world and is off in vague ethereal regions. But that's a problem for me cuz I'm a historian and literature specialist - I might think differently were I a philosopher.

 
posted by [identity profile] wildpaletz.livejournal.com at 05:44am on 17/05/2005
Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Oh yes. I can't see how a woman who actively enjoys the benefits of the feminist movements can't consider herself a feminist. Except in the case of some pretty nasty re-defining that does occur.

Do you think there are intrinsic mental differences between the genders?

Sort of. I think the jury is still sort of out, though, because women and men are not raised in controlled environments. And for folks who say that women are less good at math/science than men, then why do they have higher secondary school grades in those subjects, eh, eh? (ok, they have higher grades overall, on average, and there may be many reasons...).

However, more interesting propositions:

a) Most psychology people really do believe that it's both nature and nurture. If only will get into the mind of the general populace too, already.

b) When people make nature vs. nurture arguments, they often do so under the assumption that biological differences (or similarities) are harder to change and that learned differences are easier to change. In many (but not all) cases, this actually isn't true for humans. Neither is destiny, both can be hard to change. Also, there's enormous individual difference. Speaking as someone whose whole field is based on average differences, they often don't mean much when one talks about particular individuals.

Do you agree with #1, #2, or both

Both, hells yeah.

Also: Even though I'm living quite the bougeois life, I take a socialist-feminist perspective on things. For one thing, I've had it on good authority that it's often a more useful perspective for women from developing nations, and also, I think it really speaks to some of the issues we have to face right now (articulated by lastclearchance). Modern jobs seem to be designed on the assumption that you have someone else taking care of your home life/children/etc., ideally without pay. That makes it hard to have a traditional job and be a parent, both. It's getting better, but in many jobs, becoming part-time pretty much kills your career track. I hear some Europeans are doing a better job with child care than we are. It concerns me personally, as well.

too tired to type more...hope you got the idea.
 
posted by [identity profile] epilimnion.livejournal.com at 08:30pm on 17/05/2005
Yeah, I definitely consider myself a feminist., on points 1 & 2. Although I do think #2 is a difficult one. Doing #2 through non-merit based means, like quotas, only undermines #1. I like your idea for gender-blind job applications. On some somposition competitions I have entered, you are asked to use a pseudonym on your piece, and I choose at least a gender neutral one, if not a male name. I also agree with lastclearchance's assertion that #2 can be acheived through better childcare services. Not only does our worklife assume that domestic responsibilities are taken care of by an unpaid family member, it is assumed that those duties will be taken by women. A woman with a family can be considered a less promising prospect for advancement and responsibility, and a woman without one is sometimes seen as unnatural. So the high-powered work world is kind of made for non-childbearing beings.I've always felt rather resentful that it's easier for a man to ave a career and family than for a woman.

The nature/nurture things has always bothered me too. I think currently our culture is very quick to conclude gender differences are caused by biology. (Just think if this trend emerged with respect to race/ethnicity). When almost every cultural artifact out there, from opera to TV ads, contains some message about gender roles, you have to give it at least equal billing with biology.

And even if there are significant biological differences between men and women, why does that necessarily translate into a definition of what kinds of jobs, education, etc they should pursue? In no other way that I can think of do we expect someone to make decisions purely based on biology. (ie, we don't compel people with great test scores to become academics, nor do we force big strapping men to become football players or construction workers.) One of the most powerful ideas I encountered in feminist theory is that biology does not equal destiny.

I have read some feminist theory, and yeah, some of it is kind of wacky, or overly pedantic, or extremist, etc. But I think that's a danger with any kind of theoretical pursuit. I've read some music theory that I think is wacked-out and useless, and makes me want to run from the study as a whole, and that's a far less emotional topic. I think it's hard to find good theory in a movement whose central premise is that women are free to choose any life path and are capable of pursuing it. It's hard to theorize around a central premise of non-definition. It's too easy to fall into us/them constructs (which only seems to fuel the feminsts as radical man hating female supremacists image). I also find that some of the conflicts feminists get involved in are not the most meaningful ones out there.
 
posted by [identity profile] kenjari.livejournal.com at 09:38pm on 17/05/2005
And even if there are significant biological differences between men and women, why does that necessarily translate into a definition of what kinds of jobs, education, etc they should pursue? In no other way that I can think of do we expect someone to make decisions purely based on biology.

And why do we seem to do it with respect to women and not men? One of the gender-difference theories I've heard bandied about is that men have more natural aptitude for math-type mental skills while women are similarly wired to have aptitude for verbal-communicative type mental skills. However, we still hear that women thus are less fit to be successful scientists or mathematicians, but I have yet to hear anyone suggest that men are thus less fit to be writers or trial lawyers.

I wish I had more time to participate meaningfully in this discussion, but I've got to get my composition finished by next week or else.
 
posted by [identity profile] karakara98.livejournal.com at 01:29am on 18/05/2005
I definitely agree with 1, but I'm not sure what to do about 2. I agree with Wildpaletz that there's a combination of nature and nurture influencing gender roles. I just don't know whether this means that we should seek to make gender a more fluid thing. Social constructs are useful because they give people direction. As I go through life, I'm beginning to suspect that there exists at least the possibility that for every person who does not succeed to his or her full potential because he or she is repressed by an inflexible society (i.e. having fixed roles), there is another person who is lost and leads an equally dysfunctional life because he or she has not been given a framework within which to develop. Hence, gender roles may be a construct, but they may be a useful construct.

I am completely unsure about what to do to make every individual happy. Maybe, as the New American Dream as we're living it seems to be that everyone should find the one thing that makes him or herself happiest, we should each find a role model in the field in which we'd like to succeed, and emulate that role model regardless of that person's gender. And yet, finding a role model for one's gender is also important. I go back and forth on this.

One thing's for sure: Lastclearchance has hit the nail on the head with regard to childcare as an issue. I want a fulfilling career, but I'm reluctant to completely farm out care of my children to unrelated people. Again, I'm not sure what to do. I have visions of someday owning my own company in which childcare is provided on site. That way you can work, but still see your children occasionally.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's easy to say that things aren't working as they are and that they need to be changed, but very hard to get a consensus on how they should be changed. I guess it's the direction that many feminists want to take society in with regard to 2 that makes many people reluctant to call themselves feminists.

Is it possible to feel that HOW we want to level the playing field is a question open to debate and still be considered a feminist? If so, then yes, you may call me one.
 
posted by [identity profile] orichalcum.livejournal.com at 01:58am on 18/05/2005
My point with #2 is that feminism is about taking active steps rather than passively accepting the status quo. How you take those active steps, as long as they are in pursuit of the larger goal, is, well, why it's an umbrella philosophy in my mind. So good, affordable, local childcare, for instance, I definitely agree is a key and important goal.

OTOH, there are interesting issues there for women who don't plan on being mothers. Is it reasonable for instance to tax those women or, within a company, lower profits/stock options in order to help out the women who have made the choice to have children? I mean, I would say yes, because children are a valuable societal goal, but, of course, I plan on having biological kids, so it's easy for me to say that. But might I get upset if, say, I was paying into a fund for veterinary insurance for my colleague's sick cats? Potentially, certainly.

In terms of the framework issue, I think the question is whether or not we want gender roles to be part of that framework. I was horrified (as was Ladybird and A.) by an article last week in the Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/12/nyregion/12baby.html) about secretly telling the baby designer furniture store the gender of your baby (unknown to the parents) so that, upon arrival home, everything could be appropriately color-coded. Beyond the blatant consumerism aspects, why does a newborn's gender have to be so much more important as a defining feature than the color of their eyes or hair, or their length or weight or birth order? I'm not proposing to refuse to tell people the sex of my child, but, darn it, she or he will wear blue, and play with Legos, and American Girls dolls. (Cuz they're educational.)

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